Chat History with Harald Ponce de Leon (haraldpdl)

Created on 2005-06-06 16:45:58.

Harald Ponce de Leon: 13:31:08: hi bobby! glad to be able to still talk with you :)
Chemo: 13:31:44: I just installed the software so allow me a second to get used to it...
Chemo: 13:31:49: nice interface
Harald Ponce de Leon: 13:32:34: ok - tell me when you're ready
Chemo: 13:32:51: Does this app do voice communications as well?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 13:33:12: yep - up to 5 people simultaenously
Chemo: 13:33:23: very nice...I'm going to start using this
Chemo: 13:33:28: how is the sound quality?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 13:34:02: its a bit like walkie-talkie :)
Chemo: 13:34:11: well...at least it works
Chemo: 13:34:19: are these text chats logged?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 13:34:45: yes, skype is able to keep a history of the chats made
Chemo: 13:34:58: is it a default option or do I have to turn it on?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 13:35:24: i can't remember if it is on by default - take a look in the options
Chemo: 13:36:01: OK..logging is turned on
Chemo: 13:36:05: Let's get down to business
Harald Ponce de Leon: 13:36:24: sure - i have one question though before we start - do you mind?
Chemo: 13:36:33: go ahead
Harald Ponce de Leon: 13:38:33: in your blog you wrote a comment about not receiving a notification about the suspension, and that was at 10:46AM which is 6 hours behind my time .. I received a reply to the email I *did* send you at 15:41, which is 9:41AM "your blogging"-time .. can you explain that to me? is that a flat out lie you wrote on your blog about not receiving notification?
Chemo: 13:39:26: No...it was the fact that in my inbox there were 216 emails and that one single email from you was overlooked
Chemo: 13:39:33: I will post another blog entry and correct this
Chemo: 13:40:15: I confirm that you did send an email but I did not see it due to shear amount of messages in my inbox
Chemo: 13:40:30: I hope you understand
Chemo: 13:41:00: about half of them were from the forum (reply notifications, PM's, etc) and they all look similiar
Harald Ponce de Leon: 13:41:01: not quite - because with what I wrote above, when I received your reply to me email, you posted that comment about not received notification 1 hour later
Chemo: 13:42:14: I assure you that I did not read the email until after I posted the blog entry
Harald Ponce de Leon: 13:42:43: can you double check the times then? because it is hard for me to believe .. maybe I am wrong w ith my calculations
Chemo: 13:42:55: maybe the time is off on the blog?
Chemo: 13:43:06: I read the email about an hour after posting the blog entry
Harald Ponce de Leon: 13:43:11: i calculated it to be 6 hours behind me due to the new comments coming up
Chemo: 13:43:18: the order of history went like this:
Chemo: 13:43:26: wake up and check the threads
Chemo: 13:43:30: get the banned message
Chemo: 13:43:38: try different browsers to vaerify
Chemo: 13:43:43: went off the handle
Chemo: 13:43:48: posted the blog
Chemo: 13:43:57: started sorting through my emails for the day
Chemo: 13:44:00: found yours
Chemo: 13:44:02: replied immediately
Chemo: 13:44:10: (short message)
Chemo: 13:44:19: then started fielding the usual IM's
Chemo: 13:44:28: I'm sure there is a time calculation difference
Chemo: 13:44:49: I'm guessing it is server time on blogger.com
Chemo: 13:44:57: maybe not using daylight savings?
Chemo: 13:45:01: or vice versa
Chemo: 13:45:17: if the times are off by an hour that is my guess
Chemo: 13:46:17: at any rate...the point is that you should have contacted me BEFORE you banned me and the daylight savings time calculation would not be an issue
Harald Ponce de Leon: 13:46:57: this is how i see it, all based on my time .. you are free to minus 6 hours to check yourself.. I sent the email at 14:24, received a reply from you at 15:41, see you made a comment on your blog about not receiving notification at 16:46 .. can you please confirm this? it will only take ~5 minutes
Harald Ponce de Leon: 13:48:36: i dont see how you could have written that comment and replied to me at the same time? with 216 emails to go through
Chemo: 13:48:49: I'm checking my sent messages now
Chemo: 13:48:50: one sec
Harald Ponce de Leon: 13:48:56: thanks
Chemo: 13:50:24: hhmmm...
Chemo: 13:50:33: my sent items says send at 9:41
Chemo: 13:50:41: blog at 9:47
Chemo: 13:51:00: but know there was about an hour difference
Harald Ponce de Leon: 13:51:08: 15:41 - 6 hours is 09:41
Chemo: 13:52:53: Why is this a larger issue than the fact that you did not contact me and discuss prior to editing the account?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 13:53:12: i find it important as the evidence shows you lied on your blog?
Chemo: 13:53:32: Are you setting this conversation up for failure?
Chemo: 13:53:39: How did I lie??
Chemo: 13:53:50: I said I woke up and found my account banned
Chemo: 13:53:54: that is the truth
Chemo: 13:53:56: ???
Harald Ponce de Leon: 13:53:58: your blog is the only information the public reads (we dont attack people or projects on our blogs) and think it is very unfair to present biased information
Chemo: 13:54:04: how are you interpreting that??
Chemo: 13:54:14: Over the last 2 days I have posted 2 contributions (Google XML Sitemap and Ultimate SEO URLs v2.1) and have been supporting them with my usual zealousness. I wake up today to catch up on support threads and what do I find?

I have been banned from the osCommece forum.

Due to the decision of Harald (the project leader) I will no longer be able to support the community or my contributions.

I apologize to the osC community members that would have benefited from not only my future support but also the contributions that would have been released.

Cordially,

Bobby
Chemo: 13:54:30: what about that is not the truth?
Chemo: 13:54:50: From top to bottom...there is no inaccuracy
Chemo: 13:55:09: I simply state that I woke up and found my account banned..and that I cannot offer support due to that fact
Chemo: 13:55:30: unless you want to dispiute the fact that I woke up this morning...
Harald Ponce de Leon: 13:55:38: how do you explain the time stamps?
Chemo: 13:55:58: I don't need to first of all...I never stated anything about timeframes
Chemo: 13:56:24: but between you and me there is a time discrepency that is most likely due to a server time config somewhere between here and there
Chemo: 13:56:33: your the one making it an issue
Chemo: 13:57:00: I say the primary issue is that you did not attempt communication PRIOR to making the account change...
Chemo: 13:57:06: you say it's a blog entry
Harald Ponce de Leon: 13:57:17: hobzilla made a comment at 1:21PM which was 19:21 my time, that is how I was able to calculate the 6 hours difference
Chemo: 13:57:31: seems like you are reaching for diversion topics
Chemo: 13:57:44: get the attention away from the important issues
Harald Ponce de Leon: 13:57:57: ok - lets talk about the issues then
Chemo: 13:58:12: OK...
Chemo: 13:58:39: reasons for banning my account
Chemo: 13:58:44: ?
Chemo: 13:59:25: EMAIL: "We have had to place a suspension on your community profile due to your recent behaviour on the forums, towards other community members, and towards the team."
Harald Ponce de Leon: 13:59:34: that is correct
Chemo: 13:59:42: let's start with recent behaviour
Chemo: 13:59:46: specific examples?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:00:13: on the forum?
Chemo: 14:00:21: it's your email...you tell me
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:00:30: ok - lets start with the forum :)
Chemo: 14:00:41: I'm all ears
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:03:50: the tipping that caused the suspension was due to the public abuse against Kip, and was performed as noted on the forum rules. Kip was also warned about this incident .. that was the tipping point .. i will also list other examples now to be more specific regarding the action performed
Chemo: 14:04:18: public abuse? I was correcting him.
Chemo: 14:04:36: he claimed to own a well established and authorative website
Chemo: 14:04:53: I posted the WHOIS that demonstrated he was not the owner
Chemo: 14:04:59: that is not abuse...that is correction
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:05:23: would you like some specific quotes?
Chemo: 14:05:36: if you want...
Chemo: 14:05:46: link me
Chemo: 14:05:51: or was it deleted?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:08:25: Don't lecture me on military service you tool.

You come on here like you know what you are talking about yet rip content from websites and claim it as your own....isn't that plagurizing? Or is that OK due to you being an elder?

You lie about the website belong to you...then when I post proof that is incorrect you try to back peddle and say it's your partners. Once again being an elder must buy you some slack...but only in YOUR mind.

Ultimately, you are proven to be a liar with absolutely no idea about the topic at hand...yet you have the nerve to call me a troll, childish, and call my military service into question?

I'm the one that cited authoritive references for my replies. All of my posts are thorough, technically correct, and referenced. Can you say the same? Actually, I'd say yours are exactly opposite: vague, plagurized, and full of shit.

You have a nice night as well.
Chemo: 14:08:42: OK
Chemo: 14:08:52: and?
Chemo: 14:09:02: I tell him the truth
Chemo: 14:09:10: he did lie about owning the website
Chemo: 14:09:30: I did post replies with referenced links to W3C and RFC specifications
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:09:33: both of yous were warned here for not taking it privately
Chemo: 14:10:10: you know that is not a clear cut case...but you are still using it as such
Chemo: 14:10:22: further proof that the team is on a witch hunt looking for reasons to ban me
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:10:40: i told you that was the tipping point
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:10:48: please let me continue :)
Chemo: 14:10:58: please do
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:12:31: there are numerous of these .. jumping in when you see a moderator perform an action, without know the reasons to why the moderator performed that action
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:12:53: (on other community members i mean)
Chemo: 14:12:57: specific examples?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:13:00: for example boxtel
Chemo: 14:13:17: so, basically...for speaking my mind?
Chemo: 14:13:27: you advocate a community of mindless sheep?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:13:32: do you know what happened in boxtels cas?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:13:38: case?
Chemo: 14:13:39: or a community of suppressed thought?
Chemo: 14:13:52: I read the threads and talked to her...
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:14:01: tell me what happened
Chemo: 14:15:12: Amanda made a statement that was viewed as negative and was deleted as usual
Chemo: 14:15:21: relations with Matti went to shit and a fight ensued
Chemo: 14:15:33: that fight progressed to other areas of the forum
Chemo: 14:16:16: basically, someone did not like what she had to say
Chemo: 14:16:27: which goes right back to either mindless sheep or supressed thought
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:16:42: what happened then?
Chemo: 14:17:31: What bearing does it have on why my account was banned and what impact does it have on restoring my access???
Chemo: 14:18:01: or, is the intent of this discussion to keep my access in banned status?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:18:06: as i said, you like to jump in when you dont know the facts .. and because this happens on numerious occassions, it leads us to think you want to create a riot on purpose
Chemo: 14:18:49: move beyond the Amanda issue...what other examples can you give? There are none...that is the only time I've chimed in when it did not directly involve me.
Chemo: 14:18:57: the rest of the times were directly related to me
Chemo: 14:19:14: the only thing that proves is my tendency to speak my mind and not show fear for the moderator team
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:19:37: can i finish that example off first before going to the next example?
Chemo: 14:20:22: why not...it must have significant bearing on why my account was banned or you wouldn't be pushing it so hard, right?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:21:10: to the contrary, but you would find that hard to believe
Chemo: 14:21:28: well, if it has no bearing why are we discussing it?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:21:34: what happened after the "fight" between amanda and matti?
Chemo: 14:21:43: Amanda wanted to leave
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:22:21: and you think the "fight" was the cause for her suspension?
Chemo: 14:22:54: well, it couldn't be the fact that she offers more support to the community than 99% of members
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:23:40: her suspension was not due to that fight
Chemo: 14:23:58: I really don't care about the Amanda's suspension
Chemo: 14:24:00: I care about mine
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:24:17: but you wrote about it on the forums as if you knew everything, and attacked the teams actions.. ?
Chemo: 14:24:29: I get the impression that this conversation is not geared or focused on resolving issues but rather justifying the ban
Chemo: 14:24:43: then my ban was in retaliation
Chemo: 14:24:44: I get it now
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:25:11: no, it wasn't .. these small issues have been growing, and already described the tipping point above
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:25:56: you wrote above that you wanted the explanation for your ban .. if you want to talk about resolving issues, lets do that then ..
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:26:05: tell me what it is that you want
Chemo: 14:26:14: skip to the chase Harald...what is it going to take to restore my account so I can support those contributions?
Chemo: 14:26:29: it's not what I want...you are the one that banned ME
Chemo: 14:26:49: if I weren't banned I'd be on the forum as usual supporting the contrbuitions and answering threads
Chemo: 14:26:54: tell me what YOU want
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:29:42: easy, mind your own business and stop attacking the team :) if you think i am limiting your freedom, that is not what I mean .. you are more than welcome to talk about issues in the Project Feedback channel to the issues you know the facts of, or want to question
Chemo: 14:30:29: mind my own business?
Chemo: 14:30:49: anything that happens on that public domain forum is my business
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:31:00: see above of jumping in when you dont know the facts
Chemo: 14:31:07: anything that happens via PM or private channel is not my business
Chemo: 14:31:38: the project belongs to the community and the public domain...you just own the copyright
Chemo: 14:32:01: Frankly, I'm genuinely offended
Chemo: 14:32:34: and talk about issues in the feedback channel?
Chemo: 14:32:52: feedback channel translates to "we'll delete your shit" in 27 languages around the world
Chemo: 14:33:16: there is no open discusison anywhere...in any channel
Chemo: 14:33:40: if your mod team does not agree with it there is a 100% guarentee it will be deleted
Chemo: 14:34:32: to be honest...that is one reason that I believe prompted this ban now
Chemo: 14:34:41: the fact that you cannot edit my blog
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:35:04: editing your blog has nothing to do with it
Chemo: 14:35:23: yet an incident days ago does?
Chemo: 14:35:45: are you seriously trying to tell me that the team has been discussing banning me for days now?
Chemo: 14:35:54: why did you not contact me to discuss?
Chemo: 14:36:08: why did you drop it on me without prior notification or discussion?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:36:16: i already mentioned there are numerous issues with your behaviour/attitude and the public abuse that happened in the past 24 hours was the tipping point
Chemo: 14:36:26: bullshit
Chemo: 14:36:32: pull up one thing in the last 24 hours
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:36:47: i already wrote about Kip above
Chemo: 14:36:53: that was days ago
Chemo: 14:37:03: I have a copy somewhere...
Chemo: 14:37:10: so does Javaroasters
Chemo: 14:37:13: and a few others
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:37:29: let me check
Chemo: 14:37:30: your statement aobut the past 24 hours are completely false
Chemo: 14:37:39: do you know how I know?
Chemo: 14:37:53: because I've released 2 contrbuiotns int he last 24 hours
Chemo: 14:38:06: and have not been in General Support as much due to it
Chemo: 14:38:19: which means all I've been doing for 2 days now is supporting my code
Chemo: 14:38:32: what in the last 48 hours has prompted the ban?
Chemo: 14:38:38: nothing
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:38:49: sorry, June 3
Chemo: 14:39:06: it was either a snap judgement decision or you did not give a damn to discuss it with me PRIOR to the ban
Chemo: 14:39:34: OK...so the team has been discussing this for 3 days now
Chemo: 14:39:46: Why was I not informed?
Chemo: 14:40:04: If I had known that you were going to ban me I would not have uploaded the contrbutions
Chemo: 14:40:26: or even spent the incredible amount of time to put together the code / documentation for release
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:40:32: you were informed - i did sent you a thorough email concerning your suspension
Chemo: 14:40:38: AFTER the fact
Chemo: 14:40:51: what happened to informing me BEFORE?
Chemo: 14:41:09: so, what happened in the past 3 days that prompted this ban?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:41:10: let me quote the forum rules for the tipping point
Chemo: 14:41:20: skip it
Chemo: 14:41:22: I believe you
Chemo: 14:41:41: the issue I have is why you did not discuss with me prior and letting me know
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:41:46: "Abusive behaviour of any kind will not be tolerated, and may result in an instant ban with the accounts involved, with or without notification."
Chemo: 14:42:05: OK...so ban your moderators for abusive behavior toward senior members
Chemo: 14:42:14: ban Kip for abusive behavior
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:42:14: because that was not the only reason for your suspension, it was the tipping point of it .. i then explained it to you properly in that email i sent
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:42:37: I already mentioned that Kip was warned about the incident too
Chemo: 14:42:50: he gets warne and I get banned
Chemo: 14:42:55: nice
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:43:14: yes, it was only the tipping point for your suspension
Chemo: 14:43:37: "mind your own business and stop attacking the team"
Chemo: 14:43:57: mind your own business => if it's on the public domain forum it's my business
Chemo: 14:44:16: stop attacking the team => if they screw up I'll tell them and voice my opinion
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:44:42: what is it that you want?
Chemo: 14:44:59: I want to support my contribuitins for the good of the community
Chemo: 14:45:09: not kiss the ass of the team
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:45:11: can we meet somewhere in the middle?
Chemo: 14:45:18: I'm not here to make you or a moderator happy
Chemo: 14:45:31: I'm here to help the store owners
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:45:38: we are too
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:45:52: how can we meet in the middle?
Chemo: 14:47:22: Harald, here is my assessment: your accusation of attacking community members is bullshit. There have been 2 insntances in 3 years. They both deserved it and will not offer any apologies or middle ground.
Chemo: 14:47:26: the only real issue
Chemo: 14:47:34: is with the relations with the team
Chemo: 14:47:44: and in that case it is a 2 way street
Chemo: 14:47:51: as we've discussed at great lengths
Chemo: 14:48:06: it seems that you are putting the responsibility for change on my shoulders
Chemo: 14:48:22: when it should be shared between everyone involved
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:48:35: did i not say that in the email i sent you?
Chemo: 14:48:49: but you did not say what is being done to meet in the middle
Chemo: 14:49:06: instead, you say that if I want to restore access I have to take responsibility
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:49:16: i already did above, and now want to hear how you think we should meet in the middle
Chemo: 14:49:26: as before tell them to back off
Chemo: 14:49:39: I have not interacted negatively with a mod since the Amanda issue
Chemo: 14:49:48: even then we did exchange convo
Chemo: 14:49:59: I have had no direct interaction with a mod for weeks...maybe months
Chemo: 14:50:10: however, it is still being used as justification for the ban
Chemo: 14:50:17: as far as I can see I'm doing my part
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:50:26: no? what have you been writing about in your blog?
Chemo: 14:50:34: what are the mods doing? Probably still complaining behind closed doors
Chemo: 14:50:41: the truth...
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:50:57: the truth? with time zone monsters that eat up 1 hour? :)
Chemo: 14:51:00: I'm thinkiing of forking the project in my own directions
Chemo: 14:51:46: you find 1 hour difference to be of utmost importance...I feel it is more important that you did not disciuss with me PRIOR to banning me
Chemo: 14:52:05: we'll have to agree to disagree on merits with that point
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:52:30: you are not happy with the way the project is going, so forking would be a good idea
Chemo: 14:52:35: I agree
Chemo: 14:52:45: and that's why I'm aligning myself with the proper resources to do just that
Chemo: 14:53:09: you know I had aspirations of helping develop your application...but know that is not possible now
Chemo: 14:53:19: too much history
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:53:22: yes, that is unfortunate
Chemo: 14:53:25: your other 2 developers would never have it
Chemo: 14:53:48: ..and yourself as well
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:53:51: but people happy are productive people :)
Chemo: 14:54:04: let's not go there Harald...
Chemo: 14:54:18: a stable release every 3 years is not the definition of productive in my bool
Chemo: 14:54:20: book*
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:55:00: yes, that is our weak point
Chemo: 14:55:08: besides, that is complete bullshit
Chemo: 14:55:20: you know that to help develop the code
Chemo: 14:55:39: you do not have to give me a developer status on the froum
Chemo: 14:55:42: forum*
Chemo: 14:55:48: or list me on the website
Chemo: 14:55:58: all you have to do is setup a CVS user and let me go to town
Chemo: 14:56:16: you know this...I know this..and they know this
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:56:26: yes, a community branch is a good idea that you presented
Chemo: 14:56:40: they are worried about interacting with me on the forum but that is a non-issue
Chemo: 14:57:09: all they need to know is that our code changes won't clash
Chemo: 14:57:14: and they need -CO
Chemo: 14:57:25: do you see what I'm getting at?
Chemo: 14:57:42: there is a difference between develoepers and developers that need that little blue badge
Chemo: 14:58:05: I could care less about that blue badge...the sponsor one is enough for me and it means more
Harald Ponce de Leon: 14:58:10: yes, and it is unfortunate that a conflict at the behaviour/attitude levels exist, even though we are wanting to meet the same goals
Chemo: 14:58:11: it means I help the community
Chemo: 14:58:47: the developer means "I hand around and maybe committ changes every now and then...plus I dont offer support on the forum"
Chemo: 14:59:41: the conflict at the "behaviour/attitude level" is not only my problem....it is shared with them
Chemo: 14:59:49: yet I'm the one that can't post support in the forums
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:00:14: yes, incase you did not realized, i wrote "we" and "our" not "you" and "your" concerning healing the relationship between us
Chemo: 15:01:01: maybe...but it's "me" and "I" when it comes to offering support for my contribuitions and generally on the forums
Chemo: 15:01:25: when it comes to offering support it is never "we"
Chemo: 15:02:16: at any rate
Chemo: 15:02:28: what can be done to restore the access
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:02:52: i wrote what i wanted above
Chemo: 15:03:17: keep my mouth shut about the shortcomings of the project?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:03:26: no, that is misquoting me
Chemo: 15:03:35: that is paraphrasing you
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:03:47: where did i say that?
Chemo: 15:04:11: easy, mind your own business and stop attacking the team
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:04:19: what did i write after that?
Chemo: 15:04:33: mind your own business => if it's on the public domain forum it's my business
Chemo: 15:04:46: stop attacking the team => if they screw up I'll tell them and voice my opinion
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:05:16: sorry bobby, that cannot be done for every forum moderator action you do not know the facts behind of
Chemo: 15:05:21: the short story is that if the moderator team can correct me I can correct them
Chemo: 15:05:52: otherwise you are harboring an oppressive atmosphere and elitist moderator team
Chemo: 15:06:41: you want me to keep my nose out of issues like the Amanda thing....no problem
Chemo: 15:06:57: that was the first and probably last time I chime in about something that is not directly related to me and a mod
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:07:21: it wasn't the first .. can i resume my examples?
Chemo: 15:08:52: ?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:09:16: i told you there are numerous issues that lead to your suspension .. amanda/boxtel was only one example i provided
Chemo: 15:09:42: I'm waiting on your other examples...
Chemo: 15:10:29: you know what...forget the examples...they are not material to restoring access
Chemo: 15:10:43: they are only justification for your decision
Chemo: 15:10:59: let's move on to resolution
Chemo: 15:11:16: "mind your own business and stop attacking the team"
Chemo: 15:11:26: mind my own business => fair enough
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:11:52: "mind your own business and stop attacking the team :) if you think i am limiting your freedom, that is not what I mean .. you are more than welcome to talk about issues in the Project Feedback channel to the issues you know the facts of, or want to question"
Chemo: 15:12:00: if it does not directly involve me or a general community issue I won't offer commentary
Chemo: 15:12:23: stop attacking the team => this is a bit harder to approach
Chemo: 15:12:47: because there are no alternate aveneus of communication
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:12:56: if there is something to attack, you are always more than welcome to email me or to contact me on skype about it
Chemo: 15:13:02: if there is something to be discussed there is nobody to turn to
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:13:19: well, what issues do you have with me?
Chemo: 15:13:31: the last time you said that was "if there is something to attack, you are always more than welcome to email me or to contact me on MSN about it"
Chemo: 15:13:37: you haven't signed onto MSN since
Chemo: 15:13:44: and emails are too dial-up
Chemo: 15:13:54: for serious issue resolution
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:14:03: well, you now have me in your Skype contact list :)
Chemo: 15:14:49: the fact is that if there are alternates to duking it out with a mod it is more attractive
Chemo: 15:15:09: however, if there is no recourse other than to suck it up I'll fight back every time
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:15:26: suck it up?
Chemo: 15:15:45: swallow my pride and do nothing
Chemo: 15:15:51: = suck it up
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:16:00: where or when have i asked you to do that?
Chemo: 15:16:26: every time a moderator gets shitty with me and I have nobody to turn to...the only choice I have is to fight back
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:16:38: publicly?
Chemo: 15:17:14: if needed
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:17:34: look where it turned out :)
Chemo: 15:17:46: don't put a smile face at the end of that
Chemo: 15:17:59: I already feel shit on by the team enough
Chemo: 15:18:23: there is no need to give the impression that you are getting enjoyment out of this....even if you are
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:18:26: the last thing i want is to force something upon you
Chemo: 15:19:58: we've made a little progress...let's not fuck it up and start down a negative path again
Chemo: 15:20:25: the last point we were at
Chemo: 15:20:38: is that if there is an issue with a mod contact you via Skype
Chemo: 15:21:00: if this is the case then there are no reasons or excuses to do anything public as there is a private recourse
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:21:13: yes - when we have an issue with you, we take it with you personally .. we dont go writing about it in the forums or ranting about it in our blogs
Chemo: 15:21:22: however, if it is like the MSN recommendation we're back to square one
Chemo: 15:21:44: maybe not...but you discuss it among the team
Chemo: 15:21:58: who do I discuss it with?
Chemo: 15:22:12: given that I don't have a team I share it with the world
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:23:03: yes, but not once and once only .. how many times have you brought up the community branch idea after I replied to that posting?
Chemo: 15:23:08: if the offer is good to have an alternate avenue of communication with you via SKype then 99% of the issues are solved
Chemo: 15:23:22: because I believe in the idea
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:23:30: and there is a conflict
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:23:59: are you going to have a community branch with your fork?
Chemo: 15:24:00: Harald, if you have no intention of creating the community branch a simple "NO" works better than that polically correct "we'll look into it" response
Chemo: 15:24:04: yes I am
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:24:17: what did i reply? not today, not tomorrow, maybe some time in the future
Chemo: 15:24:23: that will be the crux of development
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:24:31: what did i write above? "yes, it was a good idea from you"
Chemo: 15:24:59: Let me pose a scenario to you
Chemo: 15:25:07: you start the branch
Chemo: 15:25:16: the community will need someone to hold their hand
Chemo: 15:25:36: someone that knows CVS inside and out....and has experience
Chemo: 15:25:59: I could fill that role easily
Chemo: 15:26:12: it gets me away from the mods and focused on another area
Chemo: 15:26:36: it gets me into the development but not the official dot release or dev team
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:26:56: but you mentioned on the community sponsors that you do not want to join the team? and then afterwards write in your blog that the chances of inviting you to the team are low.. ?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:27:09: what point are you making there?
Chemo: 15:27:13: I don't want to join the developemnt team with your group
Chemo: 15:27:25: however, I want to develop the code
Chemo: 15:27:35: either through my own fork project
Chemo: 15:27:41: or as part of the community branch
Chemo: 15:27:45: either one suits me just fine
Chemo: 15:28:06: the point is that I want to put keyboard to code
Chemo: 15:28:39: if the team doesn't want me to have a blue dev badge on the forum...whatever...that is not the reason or motivation
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:28:49: we are not going to have a community branch today or tomorrow .. i already wrote "sorry if that does not meet your requirements", and will say it again
Chemo: 15:28:58: fair enough
Chemo: 15:29:31: I'll start my fork...but that does nothing for this situation we're in now
Chemo: 15:29:44: are you going to lift the ban or no?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:30:17: that is a decision the team will make after reading this chat log
Chemo: 15:30:39: fair enough...
Chemo: 15:31:07: is there anything else to discuss?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:32:07: yes, if you have the time
Chemo: 15:32:20: What else is there to discuss?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:32:54: if you have the time, lets talk about online communities
Chemo: 15:33:25: Go ahead
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:34:02: how many online communities are you involved in?
Chemo: 15:34:42: I admin at 4 bodybuilding forums and are active on about 20 or 30 total
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:35:07: which ones are you most proud of, from the ones you are active on?
Chemo: 15:35:35: My forum and osC
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:36:06: apart from those two then :)
Chemo: 15:36:19: none...
Chemo: 15:36:25: the rest are fillers
Chemo: 15:36:43: answer threads because someone emails me to offer input on a subject
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:36:53: what is the size of the community from the 4 you administrate?
Chemo: 15:37:05: the largest is about 20K members
Chemo: 15:37:14: but, they are bodybuilding forums
Chemo: 15:37:23: so, 20K alpha males
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:37:54: how many moderators do you have there?
Chemo: 15:37:59: you think it's tough to admin osC? Try controlling 20K steroid using, aggressive alpha males on cycle
Chemo: 15:38:26: maybe 13-15
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:38:49: thats a lot compared to our forums
Chemo: 15:38:58: maybe
Chemo: 15:39:07: but each has EARNED his place on the team
Chemo: 15:39:22: and we have unwritten rules
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:39:47: does that mean we have team members whose positions have not been earned?
Chemo: 15:39:49: when a moderator becomes unable to fulfill his role and responsibilities he steps down of his own accord or gets fired
Chemo: 15:40:37: let me tell you what makes a moderator on my board
Chemo: 15:41:00: not only one who can perform administrative duties (deleted, ban, etc)
Chemo: 15:41:14: but also offers genuine support for our community
Chemo: 15:41:25: this means solid advice and knowledge of his chosen area
Chemo: 15:41:46: for some this is dieting..others specialize in lifting movements
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:42:16: just a minute, i have to step outside for 5 minutes
Chemo: 15:42:16: the point is that their ability to hit the delete button is secondary to their ability to offer support to the members
Chemo: 15:42:40: I'll continue and wait for your return
Chemo: 15:43:47: so, before a moderator earns his red badge (on my forum the magic color is red) they must demonstrate a clear ability to lead and offer support...we teach them how to moderate administratively
Chemo: 15:45:02: so, given this fact of how I operate my forum....YES, you have a team of moderators that do not offer significant support and merely administrate
Chemo: 15:45:25: however, I will concede that it is a difference in operating atmosphere and maybe even mission orientation
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:47:43: back
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:50:21: let me take a look at that point, by looking the postings moderators have made
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:50:27: just a quick glance
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:51:24: we'll start off with matti :)
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:52:44: it's not bad
Harald Ponce de Leon: 15:53:11: definitely better than "no significant support"
Chemo: 15:56:41: maybe
Chemo: 15:57:53: but, I look at the the activity of moderators (my mods) as a percentage of the most active members
Chemo: 15:58:31: after all...my view is that the time it takes to edit a post or hit the delete button is small compared to the time it takes to read the post
Chemo: 15:58:44: if they have already read the post they should post support if possible
Chemo: 15:59:17: the only acceptable reason for a mod to NOT post something is if the topic is well developed or they don't know enough about the subject to post intelligently
Chemo: 16:00:32: Do me a favor and turn off my topic notifications...
Chemo: 16:00:48: I'm still getting them but can't post support...it's killing me
Chemo: 16:00:56: I'd rather not get the notifications
Chemo: 16:01:18: still around?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 16:01:48: remove the notififcations regardless?
Chemo: 16:02:18: it seems like the ban is not going to be lifted
Harald Ponce de Leon: 16:02:41: will you be the only one making choices in your team when you publish a fork?
Chemo: 16:02:45: I don't want to receive those notifications if I can't post support
Chemo: 16:03:06: the way I operate is under a team atmosphere
Chemo: 16:03:11: but
Chemo: 16:03:20: I have final say on final selection
Harald Ponce de Leon: 16:03:31: why is there no understanding for the team reviewing this chatlog?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 16:03:59: (when you say the ban is not going to be lifted)
Chemo: 16:04:02: as an example, we nominate candidates...there are always issues between mods...so, they voice their opinion and I make the final decision based on the value they would bring to the mission
Chemo: 16:04:43: what do you mean "why is there no understanding for the team reviewing this chatlog?" ??
Harald Ponce de Leon: 16:05:38: from what you wrote that the ban is not going to be lifted .. i work under a team atmosphere too, and make decisions with the team, and is the reason why I cannot tell you something concrete now
Chemo: 16:06:26: the reason I say that is because I'm familiar with team dynamics...and know how your team operatates. Your team wanted me out for months, they voted me out now...and they sure the hell are not going to vote me back in.
Chemo: 16:07:07: so, as soon as you said that the team was going to make the decision I know what the outcome will be
Harald Ponce de Leon: 16:07:20: no, that is wrong. the team reviewed that email i sent you, and the team would like for the communication to be healed
Chemo: 16:07:36: and to them I say this:
Chemo: 16:09:04: forget it...some things are better left unsaid
Chemo: 16:10:03: Hey guys..
Great contribution, easy install... but im having one problem
Chemo: 16:10:10: turn off my notifications
Chemo: 16:10:12: please
Harald Ponce de Leon: 16:10:50: ok, am doing it now ..
Chemo: 16:10:55: the contributions I uploaded needs to be corrected for 2 small bugs...and I don't want to hear about the same issues
Harald Ponce de Leon: 16:13:22: 790 notifications?
Chemo: 16:13:38: maybe
Chemo: 16:13:41: sounds a bit low
Chemo: 16:13:45: but whatever
Harald Ponce de Leon: 16:14:01: well, that's a gain in system performance then ;)
Harald Ponce de Leon: 16:14:09: are you sure you want me to do this?
Chemo: 16:14:28: what recourse do I have Harald?
Chemo: 16:14:37: I'm getting flooded with notifications
Chemo: 16:14:40: and can't reply
Harald Ponce de Leon: 16:14:51: getting flooded is nothing unusual
Harald Ponce de Leon: 16:15:04: its up to you if you wish to wait for the team conclusion or not
Chemo: 16:15:06: no...but usually I click the link and post something
Chemo: 16:15:21: here I read what issue they are having and can't tell them how to fix it
Chemo: 16:15:42: it's driving me bloody insane
Harald Ponce de Leon: 16:15:51: :) ok, i'll delete them
Harald Ponce de Leon: 16:16:57: done
Chemo: 16:17:36: thank you
Chemo: 16:17:49: are we done talking about communities?
Harald Ponce de Leon: 16:18:08: there's more, but we can talk next time (i have to get going)
Chemo: 16:18:33: Harald...I really don't think there will be a next time
Chemo: 16:18:54: believe me...as long as I'm banned I have no reason to contact you
Chemo: 16:19:26: keep me in the loop with your decision
Harald Ponce de Leon: 16:19:28: ofcourse - i'll contact you and tell you what the results are regardless what it is
Chemo: 16:19:34: and try not to take too long
Chemo: 16:19:59: it was a slap in the face to get banned without at least the common courtesty of PRIOR discussion
Harald Ponce de Leon: 16:20:25: you were asking for it at one stage :P
Chemo: 16:20:45: in your opinion
Harald Ponce de Leon: 16:21:17: if there is a problem with the action, it is due to the forum rules, not due to the team
Chemo: 16:21:36: if all my work on osC for the community does not at least by common courtesy of telling me BEFORE I'm banned then it
Chemo: 16:21:47: is probably best I stay banned
Chemo: 16:22:10: that shows a lack of professional respect
Harald Ponce de Leon: 16:22:14: we'll be sure to talk about the results when they come in, then we can see how things can move forward
Chemo: 16:22:27: you and the team may not like me personally but I at least expect professional courtesy
Chemo: 16:22:52: OK...let's end on a good note
Chemo: 16:23:03: Good luck in the future with the project
Harald Ponce de Leon: 16:23:20: yep - thanks for the chat
Chemo: 16:23:33: goodbye
Harald Ponce de Leon: 16:23:46: enjoy your evening!